Sunday James and I decided to attend Sunday School (well, I told James we were going to attend.) Anyway, they were continuing to talk about the book, If God is Love (I'm going to refer to it as IGL). So, the class started out fine. Somehow they veered off onto the topic of politics, but eventually came back. I just sat and listened to the conversation for the right time to chime in. I am not sure what sparked me to start speaking, but I rebutted someone by saying something along the lines of "how can every person go to heaven if there are no consequences to actions?" James then chimed in and we started to say that belief in Christ is the only way to Heaven.
Oh no, though, that was not good enough! THE BOOK (IGL... not the Bible mind you) says that Christ isn't the ONLY way! WHAT???!!!!???? (it gets better) In the book IGL the author points out that the Bible says that Christ contradicts Himself in Luke and John as to the way of Salvation! WHAT!!!????!??!??!? I asked them to read me the passage in the book again...
Luke 10:25-28 is what they quoted. "On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
Then they quoted John 3:16 (but i'll expand it to 3:10-21) "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
Ok... granted... I can see the assumed contradiction here. But a person has to read these two passages in different contexts and with a mind of faith. The Luke passage says to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind." Ok... I can do that! But the Lord, MY GOD, includes the TRINITY. Therefore, Christ, is my God. (He is not the Father, but He is the Son, the Savior!!) Jesus stated that He is the only way to Heaven. John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
When Christ stated that we should follow the law of "Loving God and loving our neighbors" he did not say not to believe in Him. Loving God includes believing that He sent His Son, Jesus, to die on the cross for our sins, so we may have eternal life to be with our Father in Heaven and worship Him FOREVER! What is your opinion on this "contradiction controversy?"
I wish I could speak as well or as much as I can write, and have enough time to express what I want to say. But alas, speaking when I am frustrated is a stumbling block for me. I tried to say these things, but I was interrupted and shot down fairly quickly.
The next conundrum that came up, was "If God doesn't let everyone in to Heaven, how can He disown his own children?" The example that was gave was this... If you were a parent, could you end your relationship with your child for doing something wrong? A bunch of people around the room piped in and said that they couldn't and therefore, how could God. I, then opened my big mouth! I said, "Then you mean to tell me, that if your child kicks, punches you, verbally abuses you, and spits on you every single day, you would not tell that child to stop? And if they didn't stop, once you have told them to stop consistently, you wouldn't have to remove yourself from that toxic relationship? You could still love that child, but you don't have to accept their actions."
Oh man, that seemed to set a couple of people off. I had to admit that I couldn't be sure I could do it, but most likely I would be able to. My theory is, you can still love that child, and not accept their actions. They can "repent" (keyword) and say they are sorry and follow in the rules of the house, and then I would have a relationship with them. But if they never repented, I could not say that I could ever have a relationship with them.
The thing is God is so much more than we are. I am sure He does not like the sins we do every single day! That is why He tells us to repent, believe, and then we can have eternal life with Him.
Some in the class did admit that they could not say one way or the other if they would do that with their children, but some in the class said they would never do that. I just didn't know how to respond. What is your response? What would you do? I know that we have no idea what God would do, but what do you think about what you have been taught about God and what He would do?
So, one other topic that was brought up was the fact that there are a lot of people out there that live very "righteous" (not in a Christian way) lives. One example given was, this person has this great friend who is Buddhist. This friend has taught this person more about spirituality than this person has learned in many years of going to church.
I did not have any comment at the time, but I came up with something during church. (I truly was listening, but something the pastor said made me think of a point I wanted to make.) I wrote down my comment on an insert in our bulletin. I said that, I don't care about what other people think and teach on their way to "eternal whatever." Some people may be good, and may do good things, but our works are not what grant us eternal life! Our believe in God, and that God sent Jesus, His son, to die on the cross so we have eternal life, is the basis of OUR/MY faith. If every person has eternal life, what are we here for? Why is there the church? Didn't Christ tell us to "go and make disciples of all nations?" (Matt. 28:19). If everyone is to go to Heaven, then why would have God sent Jesus to earth? If everyone, and anyone can go to Heaven, Jesus' death was in vain.
Needless to say, I am very passionate about this subject! I do believe that God can make exceptions in any case He wants to. But, I do think that we need to follow the WORD OF GOD, and therefore we do not have to count on God making an exception for us. God created us to live our lives in love. That was stated over and over again in this class. I MUST agree with that. But I have to say, I can love, God can love, but we do not have to accept actions for which God has said are evil/bad/wrong.
Which brings me to my next point. (I know this is long, but I need to get this out.) A couple of people in the class asked the question "What is wrong? How can we, since we are not God, know what is wrong?" James brought up the 10 Commandments! These things are WRONG. (This is what Exodus 20:1-17 says)
And God spoke all these words:
"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
"You shall have no other gods before me.
"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand of those who love me and keep my commandments.
"You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
"Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
"You shall not murder.
"You shall not commit adultery.
"You shall not steal.
"You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
"You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
I believe that doing those things are wrong. Do you? These are the guides to figure out what is wrong and what is right in God's eyes. Am I correct in that assumption?
Now there are a lot of things that individual churches/denominations have declared wrong, that may not be wrong in other churches/denominations. I think this is where LOVE comes in. I may believe that something someone is doing is wrong, and they may think it is right. We both may have scripture to back up our views. I do not have to agree with that person that they are right, but I do HAVE to love that person! God is the one who judges. I have been called not to judge. (See Matthew 7:1-5) All I can do for the person I disagree with is share my perspective, let them share theirs, listen, love, and pray that God's will is done in my heart and in that persons heart!
We are called to love God and our neighbors. We are also called to do so much more.
I want to ask you, do you believe in Christ? Do you believe God sent His Son, Jesus, to die on the cross for YOU? If you do, I pray that you are preaching and teaching to as many souls as you can reach.
If this is the first time you have heard of Christ, knowing more is easy. Ask God to open your heart and your mind to His word. Ask Christ to come into your heart and seek Him out. Get yourself a Bible and read it. Find a church where you can express your beliefs, and yet be challenged to find the truth in the Word.
I know this took a quirky turn towards the end, but I know there is some reason for this. Some reason for the questions. I am being tested so my faith can become stronger!
By the way, I found all my Bible quotes at http://www.biblegateway.com/. I also found some references in the Bible about Hell and the Devil... Hell (Luke 16:23; Matt 5:22,29, 30; Mark 9:43,45,47; 2Peter 2:4) Devil/Satan (Job [throughout the book]; Zach. 3:1; Luke 4:1-13; Matt 13:39; John 6:70 & 13:27; 2 Thes 2:9; 1 Tim 5:15; Rev. 12:9)
Let me know what you think.... Leave a comment or email me. Thanks.
2 comments:
So, I totally typed out a long comment last night and when I hit "submit" it went away. Let's try again :)
First, I think that if your church si not teaching Biblical doctrine, and/or allowing its teachers to teach books that do NOT line up with the Bible--like your sister said before, RUN. Satan is in that church stirring up confusion and tempers and that is NOT glorifying to God.
I don't think you are obligated to stay there because you started at that church, or it's related to your job or anything--I think as God's child you are to run quickly into His arms and find a church that will only preach things that line up with God's Word!
Even if the pastor in his sermons preaches Biblical doctrine--the other teachers in the church are leading believers astray and that is of no benefit to God.
I was once told that I didn't need to study cults to be able to defend my faith against them (mainly mormonism and their extra book of mormon) but that I should study the BIBLE and that way I would know when things didn't line up with what God was saying. I think this is the same at your church. You need to stop attending the church altogether, especially the Sunday school, because you already know it's wrong--don't study it more to be able to defend God more. Study GOD more. (at a different church :))
and my last point...possibly not well-received...and hard to do...I would suggest letting James be the spiritual leader in your home and decide when and where you are going to church...unless he decides no church at all...then take that issue up with God...but letting him spiritually lead your family is not only something that will make him feel more like a man, but what as a Christian wife we are called to do!
(Our husbands will be held responsible for their leadership and loving us as Christ loves the church, but our duties are to submit to his leadership and humbly follow as we would follow and serve Christ).
Anyway. Here's my long post, no need to agree with it all, but thanks for listening to it all; see you Friday!!
Kristen –
I know we have not always seen eye to eye when it comes to religion, but I do have to agree with you in most of what you’re saying.
In the defense of the church (not the class), Calvary is a very liberal environment and clearly not everyone believes the same theology. Calvary has their very conservatives and their very liberals.
Let me start by saying that the following is my theology and I by no means am attempting to push it on anyone. I am strictly sharing my beliefs openly. As an American Baptist I believe in certain freedoms, one of which is religious freedom. I recognize that each individual is at a different point in their so called faith journey. I think it is important to learn from one another and to share our faith in order to grow. I enjoy a religious discussion as long as it’s Christian based and an open-minded discussion where everyone feels comfortable to share their beliefs and not force them on others. With that said, there are certain non-negotiables in my mind when it comes to religion. For example there is a heaven/God and hell/Satan. As well as, Jesus/God is the only way to eternal life. There are other aspects to me that are of less importance, for example the issue of women having a leadership role in the church and wearing head coverings. Some take the Bible very literally and others “take it into context.” Whatever your belief on these I’m fine with that.
What is disturbing to me about our Sunday school class is that they are testing my non-negotiables. Not only are they doing that but I feel they are pushing it onto me as their belief and that I should feel the same way. I understand what you are saying about not studying cults. I don’t know that I really want to study cults but I am curious about the aspects of my religion as well as other religions. I don’t feel that I am harming myself. I do it more out of curiosity.
To your point of what to do next, at this point I have considered leaving this church and finding a new church because of the above fore mentioned. This is a struggle for us because of the ties we have built in this church as well as my current involvement in the pastoral search team. I don’t feel that the beliefs of a few within our class are the wide-stretching beliefs of all. You’re going to find a few people in every church that are “a little out there.” For now I have told Jess that I most likely will not be attending Sunday school as well as disassociating myself with certain individuals who I feel are pushing a non-Christian agenda.
I greatly appreciate your input in the matter. It has been a difficult time for us in determining what we need to do next in order to feel close to God.
James Fischer
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